5.4.2 Rotation Analysis

In December, I talked about the code I’ve written to automate the testing of Simcraft profiles. In that post, I tackled the two easiest simulations to write: glyphs and talents. In both of those cases, we’re just editing a single line of the .simc file, so it was a fairly simple job of tweaking that line and repeating. Of course, there was the entire superstructure of code surrounding that idea, which is what took far longer than the (relatively) simple logic required to swap out talents and glyphs.

Today I present the results of the other end of the spectrum – one of the most difficult sims to write. Because today we’re going to look at rotations.

If you haven’t read the previous post, I recommend you go back and do so now.  Or at least re-read the “Automating Simcraft” portion of it. I’ll refresh your memory about certain points, but I’m going to assume that you’re familiar with the basics of how this code operates. In short, if you don’t remember that we piece together a .simc file from discrete components (i.e. a player, a gear set, a rotation, a set of glyphs, a set of talents, etc.), then you should probably go re-read that section.

Note that I’ve taken to calling each of these components “blocks” in the rest of this post. That’s what I tend to call them in my head, and it’s faster than typing “component” over and over. Plus, I think it gives a nice visual – sort of like building the .simc file out of a bunch of different distinct Lego pieces.

Rotations Schmotations

You might ask what makes the rotation sim significantly harder than, say, a glyph sim. The short (and woefully incomplete) answer is that it involves changing more than one line of the .simc file we feed to the executable.

I say “woefully incomplete” because that statement encompasses a lot more than just swapping out a single component.  For example, in the glyph simulation, we kept the same player block, gear block, rotation block, and so on, and just swapped out the glyph block. We did that by pre-generating a glyph block for all of the different glyph combinations we were interested in and cycling through them.

On its face, it seems like that same logic couldn’t apply to the rotation simulation. We could just generate 100 different rotation blocks that describe the different rotations we’re interested in, and then swap them in and out one by one to get the results. Right?

Wrong. Oh, so wrong…

That might work fine for a really simple rotation simulation where we only consider combinations of basic abilities. For example, we limit ourselves to Crusader Strike, Judgment, Avenger’s Shield, Holy Wrath, Hammer of Wrath, and Consecration. That would be enough to figure out the basic gist of the rotation, for sure.

But it should be obvious that this list is missing a few important abilities. What if we want to include Sacred Shield, or one of our level 90 talents? All of those have to go into the rotation somewhere. And the sim won’t use them unless we’ve talented them. So, first of all, that means we need to swap the talent block out at the same time as the rotation block. And not just that, but we need some way to know which talent block to use when – it’s no good if we use a talent block with Light’s Hammer when we’re testing Execution Sentence rotations. That seems like an obvious and trivial problem to solve, but it’s still an extra moving part we need to consider in a sim that’s already going to be pretty complicated.

Because it’s not just talents we need to worry about, either. Let’s say we want to look at execute-range rotations in particular. We might want to know if Holy Wrath changes priority when Final Wrath is glyphed. But to do that, we need to enable that glyph, or else use it by default. But there may be cases where we don’t want it on, either. So we need to be able to swap glyphs too.

Further, we need to be able to specify conditionals in the action priority list (APL). So that, for example, we can compare




Now, of course, that’s not really a problem in theory, because we could just write each block by hand and take care of all of that. But we might have hundreds of rotations, and the risk of making a small, unnoticed but relevant error in one of them is pretty high when you’re talking about writing that many by hand. Also, if you really expected me to write hundreds of rotation files by hand, you’re kidding yourself.

We’ll still need a good shorthand for it for identifying rotations on tables anyway, and if you’re going to write a robust shorthand, then you may as well automatically generate the rotation blocks from that shorthand. That gives us the consistency we want (because there will never be an error in “HW” in one file that doesn’t exist everywhere else) and makes tables easy to read. But it adds another complication: now we need to write a translator that goes between shorthand and full SimC file, complete with all of the options and conditionals we might want to use.

You can already see why this snowballed into one of the more complicated sims to write. And it’s not even necessarily the hardest – the AoE one may be more annoying still depending on what exactly we want to calculate!

The Nitty Gritty Details

So, in short, this is how the simulation works. I’ve divided the rotations we care about up into groups (which, in a sad turn of events, I’ve called “blocks” in the code…. oops? I’ll be consistent about calling them “groups” here though).  Each group has a defined set of talents and glyphs, because for the most part those vary on a group level. So there’s a “Basic” group, an “Execute” group that focuses on Hammer of Wrath and Final Wrath, a “Defensive” group that’s primarily for testing Sacred Shield, and a “Level 90″ group that tests all the level 90 talents.

In addition, I have the ability to enable custom talents per rotation. So for example, within the Level 90 group, it will automatically check each rotation to see which level 90 talent it uses and tweak the talent block to enable that talent. It also does this for the Sacred Shield rotations in the Defensive group. I signify this by adding “+custom” to the end of the talent block, which is the flag the code looks for to decide whether it needs to perform this check.

In theory I could do the same thing with glyphs, I suppose, but I found that I didn’t really need to. It wouldn’t be difficult to modify the code to do that in the future if we decide it’s necessary.

The rest of the difficulty was coming up with the abbreviation scheme for abilities and their conditionals. Thinking ahead, I wanted this to be extendable to other classes, so I set it up such that each class can have its own definitions. For a paladin, CS will always mean Crusader Strike, but if we’re simming another class it could translate to something different.

The abilities were fairly easy, since I’ve been using a standard notation for them in the old MATLAB code for years. They are:

Ability Shorthands
Shorthand Ability
CS Crusader Strike
CSw Crusader Strike followed by a /wait (see below)
HotR Hammer of the Righteous
J Judgment
AS Avenger's Shield
HW Holy Wrath
HoW Hammer of Wrath
Cons Consecration
SS Sacred Shield
ES Execution Sentence
LH Light's Hammer
HPr Holy Prism
SotR Shield of the Righteous
EF Eternal Flame
WoG Word of Glory

In the earlier code, we used a bracketing technique for options, which was very powerful, but led to really long rotation names.This time around, I’m trying to keep the names fairly compact for display purposes, so I went with a slightly different method. Each option has a shorthand and gets appended to the ability shorthand with a plus sign (‘+’). The options I have enabled at this point are:

Conditional Shorthands
Shorthand Conditional
W# add a /wait after the ability if the cooldown is less than or equal to # seconds
GC# buff.grand_crusader.up or buff.grand_crusader.remains<#
DP buff.divine_purpose.react
DPHP# (buff.divine_purpose.react|holy_power>=#)
ex target.health.pct<=20
FW glyph.final_wrath.enabled&target.health.pct<=20
HP# holy_power>=#
nt !ticking
nF target.debuff.flying.down
SW talent.sanctified_wrath.enabled&buff.avenging_wrath.react
T# active_enemies>=#
R# buff.(ability_string).remains<#

So for example, AS+GC would translate into


Not all of these are in use in the data I’ll present today, but they’re all coded and potentially usable. I expect that we’ll add a bunch of action priority lists to the simulation after we’ve analyzed the results in this post. For example, it might be interesting to see if “Cons+nt” has any effect, but it wasn’t high on my list of priorities when I was putting this together so I didn’t include it.

There’s one special case I want to mention. The “wait” conditional works something like this: CS+W0.35 translates to:


As you might expect from the default APL for protection, this almost always nets an increase in holy power generation because it prevents us from doing silly things like CS-X-X-X-CS. That can otherwise happen in situations where one or more of the X’s were spells, so the GCD ends a little before CS becomes available. As a result, we’ll almost always want to follow CS with a wait. Since that comes up a lot, and I didn’t want to type CS+W0.35 all the time in the interest of keeping the rotation abbreviations short and readable, I’ve defined the shorthand “CSw” to implicitly mean “CS+W0.35″

As a final note, I want to mention that this simulation is limited to GCD-based abilities. In other words, I’m using the same precombat actions and the same finishers in each rotation. I’m basically bolting the rotations below together with the precombat actions and the following default finisher definitions:


This ensures that the changes we see are purely due to any change in holy power generation or dead time in the rotations themselves. And in any event, since our active mitigation is decoupled from the GCD, it’s not really part of our “rotation” in a strict sense. It’s stuff we use when necessary and available based on the resources, not based on whether they’re more or less important than e.g. CS.  We’ll analyze the finisher options specifically in a later sim in much the same way we do here for the rotation. Luckily, that sim will be a lot easier to write!

As usual, all of the code can be found in the matlabadin repository. This sim uses a lot of files, but the master one that controls it all is:

All of the results can be found in the /io/ directory, along with the results of the glyph and talent simulations. The sims are labeled appropriately with “>” replaced by “_”.
(Ex: rotation_paladin_protection_CSw_J_AS_HW_HoW_Cons.html)


We’ll go through each of the rotation groups one at a time, briefly discussing what makes them unique and why we’ve made the choices we have.They all use the default T16N profile gear set (which includes 4T16) and are pitted against the T16N25 TMI calibration boss. The default talents include Unbreakable Spirit, Eternal Flame, and Divine Purpose unless otherwise specified. Everything else should be provided in the details below.

I’ll note that for all of these simulations, I’ve set the number of iterations to 250k. Yes, that’s a lot, but it’s necessary to get the degree of accuracy we want.

The “DPS Error” that Simulationcraft reports is really the half-width of the 95% confidence interval (CI). In other words, it is 1.96 times the standard error of the mean. To put that another way, we feel that there’s a 95% chance that the actual mean DPS of a particular simulation is within +/- DPS_Error of the mean reported by that simulation. There are some caveats to this statement, insofar as it makes some reasonably good but not air-tight assumptions about the data, but it’s pretty good.

I’m actually doing a little statistical analysis on SimC results right now to investigate some deviations from this prediction, but that’s enough material for another blog post, so I won’t go into more detail yet. What it means for us, though, is that in practice I’ve found that when you run the sim for a large number of iterations (i.e. 50k or more) the reported confidence interval tends to be a little narrower than the observed confidence interval you get by calculating it from the data.

So for example, at 250k iterations we regularly get a DPS Error of approximately 40. In theory that means we feel pretty confident that the DPS we found is within +/-40 of the true value. In practice, it might be closer to +/- 100 or so.

Why does that matter for us? Well, we want to know if one rotation is better than another in a statistically significant sense. Based on the theoretical estimate, this means that as long as they’re farther apart than 80 DPS, we can trust that the higher-DPS rotation is better. In practice, I think we should expand that bound a bit, at least to 100 DPS, and probably to 200 DPS if we’re going to be generous and assume that there could be other sources of systematic error that we don’t know about. I’ve seen the same rotation sim up to 300 DPS differently from two separate runs, so I’m inclined to be a little more generous in my error estimate than SimC is.

And keep in mind that we’re looking at a mean value of almost 400k DPS in these sims. 400 DPS is a change of 0.1%, which is miniscule, and not likely to swing an encounter one way or another. Even if our sims are accurate to that level, that’s right around  the point where you prioritize mental bandwidth over DPS gain and choose the rotation that’s simpler to execute. So I’d probably be hesitant to ascribe any real significance to differences that are smaller than 1000 DPS, which is still less than a 1% change.

Basic Rotation Group

This group of rotations is focused on determining the order of operations for our basic abilities, excluding talents and execute range. From this, we determine our “ideal” base rotation, which we then go about tweaking in the other groups.

In this set, we use just two glyphs: Focused Shield and Word of Glory. We could have included Divine Protection, but we want to be able to compare the survivability results to those obtained in later groups which use all three glyph slots on DPS glyphs. Plus, there’s really not a lot to learn from glyphing Divine Protection here. It’s our only feasible survivability glyph and it’s so highly situational that there’s no guarantee we’re using it for a given boss.

In addition to the table, the sim spits out the maximum DPS Error measurement of the group (each rotation is fairly similar in that regard, so it didn’t make sense to include it on the table) and the talents and glyphs used:

Max DPS Error: 41
Talents: 312232
Glyphs: focused_shield/word_of_glory

Basic Rotations
Rotation DPS HPS DTPS TMI Var SotR Wait
CS>J>AS>Cons>HW 373603 160013 160353 6212 2062 71.0% 14.5%
CS>J>AS>HW>Cons 379608 159521 159854 4287 971 71.4% 13.2%
CS+W0.3>J>AS>HW>Cons 373814 157738 158054 533 117 73.2% 12.7%
CSw>J>AS>Cons>HW 368204 157862 158182 460 47 73.1% 13.8%
CSw>J>AS>HW>Cons 373591 157666 157983 427 55 73.2% 12.7%
CSw>J>HW>AS>Cons 372798 157616 157932 410 77 73.3% 12.5%
CSw>HW>J>AS>Cons 359765 161552 161890 626 61 69.6% 15.6%
HW>CSw>J>AS>Cons 363466 161565 161905 806 122 69.6% 14.9%
CSw>AS>J>HW>Cons 373952 158483 158804 451 38 72.5% 12.8%
J>CSw>AS>HW>Cons 368396 162575 162942 90576 83031 68.5% 17.4%
J>AS>CSw>HW>Cons 372886 163157 163529 61525 35811 67.9% 17.0%
AS>J>CSw>HW>Cons 372490 163965 164342 174459 57861 67.2% 17.4%
AS>CSw>J>HW>Cons 378485 159759 160092 1971 365 71.2% 13.0%
HotR+W0.35>J>AS>HW>Cons 371877 159558 159894 6714 5015 71.4% 13.2%
AS+GC>CSw>J>AS>HW>Cons 374633 157958 158289 727 145 72.9% 12.7%
CSw>AS+GC>J>AS>HW>Cons 373734 157767 158086 409 52 73.1% 12.7%
CSw>AS+GC>J>HW>AS>Cons 373243 157700 158021 391 43 73.2% 12.5%
CSw>AS+GC>J>HW>Cons>AS 372838 158084 158405 429 79 72.8% 12.3%

Note that you can sort the table by a particular column by simply clicking on that column’s header. The “Var” column simply reports the measurement of “TMI Error,” which is really more of an uncertainty or variance measure due to the nature of the TMI distribution. Basically, treat that column as the +/- on the measured TMI value. The “Wait” column tells us how much time the sim spends waiting while the GCD is available, either because there’s nothing to cast or because we’re hitting the /wait action.

Before sorting, it’s clear that waiting for CS’s cooldown to come up is a significant survivability gain. The more subtle thing to notice is that it’s actually a slight DPS loss, mostly because CS hits like a limp noodle. There are a number of reasons for that, but the primary one is that CS’s damage increases far more slowly with attack power than the rest of our abilities do. So the higher Vengeance gets, the worse CS is compared to just about everything else we could cast.

A lot of the features here are expected. Dropping CSw below anything else in priority gives you a large survivability loss. It’s worth noting that the “CSw>AS+GC>J>*” rotations near the bottom produce some very low TMI results, but I’m still a bit skeptical of these. The SotR uptime isn’t any higher than the default (CSw>J>AS>HW>Cons), nor are the TMI values lower in a statistically significant sense.

If we sort by DPS, we see that the top rotation is actually the one where we don’t wait for CS’s cooldown, again because CS is such a weak ability at this point. But after that one, we have a bunch of rotations that emphasize AS in various ways. This can be summarized with a pretty simple rule of thumb: “if you don’t care about survivability and need max DPS right now, prioritize AS.”

There are a bunch of rotations where I push Holy Wrath up ahead of CS/J/AS. These aren’t interesting from a survivability point of view, because they uniformly increase our TMI. They also seem to uniformly reduce DPS compared to the standard CSw>J>AS>HW>Cons. We’ll have to revisit these in the execute range group where we have Final Wrath glyphed, which is where we might expect a high HW prioritization to bear fruit.

The HotR rotation I threw in has the same wait as CSw, so it’s directly comparable to a CSw rotation. This is really only relevant in cases where you want to know how much single-target damage you’re sacrificing to cleave to adds now that Weakened Blows is applied by both abilities. Nonetheless, we see it’s about a 1700 DPS loss to use HotR instead of CS. Not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things, we’re talking about less than a 1% difference. CS and HotR both hit so weakly it’s almost irrelevant which you use.

I also want to call attention to the TMI and Var columns again quickly. If you sort by either of these, you’ll see that as TMI goes up, so does the variance. This is one significant drawback of the current TMI formula – because it’s an exponential metric, the variance tends to be rather large when TMI is large. Increasing the number of iterations doesn’t end up helping it much, because it’s just not anything resembling a Gaussian distribution.

The two take-home messages I want to get across here are:

  • Unless two TMI values differ by more than the sum of their Var columns, it’s not 100% clear that they’re different in a statistically significant sense. So TMIs of 400 and 500 are roughly identical if their Vars are 100 or more, but you could safely say that a TMI of 400 is better than e.g. a TMI of 1000. We’re looking for order-of-magnitude effects in TMI, because that’s how the metric was constructed.
  • This will be fixed in TMI v2.0, which I’m working on currently. More on that soon, maybe next week if I have time to write.

Next, let’s look at the execute rotations.

Execute Rotation Group

In this case, we want to find out how we vary the basic CSw>J>AS>HW>Cons rotation in execute range. That means we need to know where to slot in Hammer of Wrath and what (if anything) to do about Holy Wrath when Final Wrath is glyphed.

Since we can already look at the table above to figure out what happens when Final Wrath isn’t glyphed, this group includes it by default along with Focused Shield and Word of Glory.

Max DPS Error: 41
Talents: 312232
Glyphs: focused_shield/word_of_glory/final_wrath

Execute Rotations
Rotation DPS HPS DTPS TMI Var SotR Wait
CSw>J>AS>HW>Cons>HoW 383714 157727 158045 379 30 73.2% 11.2%
CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 384536 157678 157999 436 111 73.2% 11.0%
CSw>J>AS>HoW>HW>Cons 383834 157566 157879 431 121 73.3% 10.9%
CSw>J>HoW>AS>HW>Cons 383380 157868 158196 529 135 73.0% 10.9%
CSw>HoW>J>AS>HW>Cons 383612 157968 158297 519 123 72.9% 10.9%
HoW>CSw>J>AS>HW>Cons 383963 158370 158738 2348 761 72.5% 11.0%
CSw>J>HW+FW>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 384673 157751 158072 397 41 73.2% 11.0%
CSw>J>AS+GC>HW+FW>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 384381 157701 158020 416 59 73.2% 11.0%
CSw>HW+FW>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 384846 158089 158426 458 65 72.8% 11.0%
HW+FW>CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 385184 158096 158435 632 229 72.8% 11.0%

We can clearly see that Hammer of Wrath should slot in ahead of Consecration but behind Holy Wrath. TMI values vary somewhat depending on how far ahead of other abilities you put it, but note that HoW>J and J>HoW don’t differ much because both are 6-second cooldowns, so they don’t generally clash all that often.

However, if we push HoW ahead of CSw we get a significant TMI increase without realizing any sort of DPS gain compared to slotting it behind Holy Wrath. This is a little different than the results we got with the old MATLAB sims in 5.2, which suggested HoW was a DPS increase at the top of the priority queue. My guess is that the change is due to two factors: switching our L45 talent from SS to EF and losing Grand Crusader procs.

In 5.2, we had fewer empty GCDs because we’d be refreshing Sacred Shield every 30 seconds and using up more Grand Crusdaer procs, which ended up leaving less room for Hammer of Wrath and other fillers. Now, we have a larger number of empty GCDs to work with, so using Hammer of Wrath doesn’t necessarily push another filler back multiple cycles. And since we have those extra GCDs more regularly, it’s not worth pushing it ahead of the basic CS-J cycle; it’s just more efficient to slot it back in wherever it fits without delaying heavy-hitters like AS and Final-Wrath-Glyphed Holy Wrath (can we just call it “Final Wrath” in execute range?).

Speaking of Final Wrath, it looks like that does hit hard enough to be a DPS increase at the front of the queue, for relatively little cost in TMI. The CSw>J>AS+GC>HW+FW>AS>HW>HoW>Cons rotation is particularly interesting in that it gives you a small (~300) DPS boost without sacrificing any holy power generation. But at the same time that difference is right at (or below) our error threshold, so it’s not clear that’s a realizable gain. By the time we’re looking at 0.1% DPS increases, we’re splitting more hairs than we probably should.

So the conclusion here seems to be that the filler order ought to be HW>HoW>Cons, and during execute range you can prioritize “Final Wrath” as high as you want for a DPS gain, realizing that you’re sacrificing a little survivability if you use it instead of a holy power generator.

Next up: Defensive rotations.

Defensive Rotation Group

While I called this the “Defensive” category, it should really just be called the “Sacred Shield” category, since that’s the only defensive spell in here. And with EF being so strong in Siege of Orgrimmar, it’s also mostly irrelevant. But I’m including it for completeness, and to highlight how strong EF really works out to be.

One oversight here is that this group doesn’t take advantage of the T16 4-piece. The default finisher block has lines for SotR usage and Eternal Flame maintenance, but there’s nothing in there for Word of Glory. As a result, we expect to see a drop in SotR uptime corresponding to losing the 4-piece bonus, as well as an increase in TMI. In the future, I’ll be adding a line like this:


which should appropriately use WoG whenever we have 3 stacks of the 4T16 buff to fish for extra Divine Purpose procs. For now, just keep in mind that the results in this group aren’t strictly comparable to the ones with EF for survivability purposes. However, they should still be accurate for comparing the SS rotations against one another if you’re hell-bent on running Sacred Shield.

Max DPS Error: 41
Talents: 313232
Glyphs: focused_shield/word_of_glory/final_wrath

Sacred Shield Rotations
Rotation DPS HPS DTPS TMI Var SotR Wait
CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons>SS 367667 111879 120831 230953 15250 68.8% 3.3%
CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>SS+R1>Cons 370778 113784 122153 151427 5737 69.9% 8.9%
CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>SS+R1>Cons>SS 367419 111758 118767 116705 3947 68.8% 3.3%
CSw>J>AS>HW>SS+R1>HoW>Cons>SS 367205 111699 118253 99323 3247 68.8% 3.3%
CSw>J>AS>SS+R1>HW>HoW>Cons 368861 113136 119949 100877 3655 70.0% 9.1%
CSw>J>AS>SS+R1>HW>HoW>Cons>SS 366914 111684 118101 98289 3051 68.8% 3.3%
CSw>J>AS+GC>SS+R1>AS>HW>HoW>Cons>SS 366800 111667 118048 98425 4289 68.8% 3.3%
CSw>J>AS>SS+R2>HW>HoW>Cons>SS 367064 111661 118041 95695 2790 68.8% 3.3%
CSw>J>AS>SS+R3>HW>HoW>Cons>SS 366863 111692 118097 98717 2810 68.8% 3.3%
CSw>J>AS>SS+R4>HW>HoW>Cons>SS 366868 111676 118065 96511 2942 68.8% 3.3%
CSw>J>AS>SS+R5>HW>HoW>Cons>SS 366886 111665 118051 96597 3131 68.8% 3.3%
CSw>J>AS+GC>SS+R1>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 368770 112856 119307 87275 2789 70.0% 9.1%
CSw>J>SS+R1>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 368547 112834 119190 87898 2947 70.0% 9.1%
CSw>SS+R1>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 368234 112800 119149 96260 5332 69.7% 9.2%
SS+R1>CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 368466 112689 119040 95784 7286 69.7% 9.1%

First, notice that all of the TMI values on this table are in the 100k range, compared to ~400 when we use Eternal Flame. Some of that is the utter dominance of EF over SS at high AP/Vengeance, some of it is because the Shield of the Righteous uptime is lower by a few percent because we’re no longer leveraging the 4-piece bonus. Note that our SotR uptime is a little higher here than the ~64% range we saw in the 4T16 post; we’re averaging around 69% instead.

You might wonder why that is – after all, in that earlier post we said the 4T16 benefit is about 10% SotR uptime, and we’re not taking advantage of the 4-piece in this group of sims. However, when we talent Sacred Shield we also don’t have to maintain Eternal Flame, which means we can spend that holy power on SotR instead, making up about half of the difference. If we were fishing for extra DP procs with Word of Glory, SotR uptime should actually catch up to what we get with Eternal Flame.

In any event, there’s not a lot to say here. TMI obviously improves as we increase the priority of refreshing SS (“SS+R1″ means “refresh SS if it’s got less than 1 second left”), but there’s no advantage to putting it ahead of CS or J. I added the CSw>J>AS+GC>SS+R1>AS>HW>HoW>Cons option at the last minute on a hunch, as I suspected that would truly be the low-TMI option after looking at the rest of the results, and it paid off. I’m not entirely sure why this performs better than the identical rotation with an exra “>SS” tacked onto the end though. It’s clear that it’s causing some kind of holy power generation loss based on the SotR uptimes, but I don’t really see how.  Something to investigate for later, I guess.

I also want to draw attention to the fact that refreshing it at 2 seconds early seems to be the sweet spot. One second puts it off long enough that sometimes you get short gaps due to the GCD. Three seconds or longer tends to be no more effective than two seconds. I don’t know offhand why the SS+R3 version scored so poorly, but again, it could just be RNG given the Var column is nearly 3000.

That’s enough about Sacred Shield, let’s move on to the level 90 talents.

Talent Rotations Group

This is the fun group, where we make use of our “+custom” talent flag. Basically, we’re just swapping the L90 talent appropriately so that we have the ability the rotation calls for.

There are two things we’re checking for in this sim. First, what’s the “default” place to slot each talent into the rotation, ignoring what section of the encounter we’re in. Then, we want to try and fine-tune that by specifying execute rotations to see if there’s an advantage to increasing the priority during execute. We might care about that because once Hammer of Wrath becomes available, we don’t have that many empty GCDs to work with, so we could inadvertently ignore a L90 talent (or at least delay it for a long time) if we slot it behind Hammer of Wrath.

I’ve decided to split this group up into three tables for ease of filtering/sorting.

Max DPS Error: 41
Talents: 312232+custom
Glyphs: focused_shield/word_of_glory/final_wrath

Execution Sentence Rotations
Rotation DPS HPS DTPS TMI Var SotR Wait
CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons>ES 404748 157849 158167 591 332 73.1% 9.6%
CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>ES>Cons 406988 157828 158147 454 110 73.1% 9.7%
CSw>J>AS>HW>ES>HoW>Cons 407136 157867 158187 406 46 73.1% 9.7%
CSw>J>AS>ES>HW>HoW>Cons 406419 157757 158077 517 235 73.2% 9.9%
CSw>J>ES>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 406392 157809 158126 433 48 73.1% 9.9%
CSw>ES>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 405022 157857 158175 539 117 73.0% 10.0%
ES>CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 405441 158113 158437 665 134 72.7% 10.0%
CSw>J>AS>ES+ex>HW>ES>HoW>Cons 407045 157824 158144 432 91 73.1% 9.7%
CSw>J>AS+GC>HW>AS>ES>HoW>Cons 405890 157756 158075 452 125 73.1% 9.7%
CSw>J>AS+GC>HW+FW>AS>HW>ES>HoW>Cons 406777 157838 158157 385 35 73.1% 9.8%

Light's Hammer Rotations
Rotation DPS HPS DTPS TMI Var SotR Wait
CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons>LH 393512 157962 158280 308 22 73.1% 9.6%
CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>LH>Cons 393944 158002 158310 329 51 73.1% 9.8%
CSw>J>AS>HW>LH>HoW>Cons 394156 158013 158320 327 80 73.1% 9.8%
CSw>J>AS>LH>HW>HoW>Cons 393962 157918 158221 316 38 73.2% 10.0%
CSw>J>LH>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 394201 158002 158305 324 59 73.1% 10.0%
CSw>LH>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 394363 158040 158344 326 50 73.0% 10.0%
LH>CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 394678 158286 158595 421 89 72.8% 10.0%
CSw>J>AS>LH+ex>HW>LH>HoW>Cons 393949 158018 158323 279 19 73.1% 9.8%
CSw>J>AS+GC>HW>AS>LH>HoW>Cons 392669 157944 158250 314 34 73.1% 9.7%
CSw>J>AS+GC>HW+FW>AS>HW>LH>HoW>Cons 393873 158029 158335 299 33 73.0% 9.8%
Holy Prism Rotations
Rotation DPS HPS DTPS TMI Var SotR Wait
CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons>HPr 396882 158186 158505 339 27 72.9% 7.6%
CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>HPr>Cons 396093 158345 158655 336 37 72.8% 7.8%
CSw>J>AS>HW>HPr>HoW>Cons 395777 158348 158657 363 63 72.7% 7.9%
CSw>J>AS>HPr>HW>HoW>Cons 394603 158170 158476 300 23 72.9% 8.0%
CSw>J>HPr>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 394422 158173 158479 383 65 72.9% 8.0%
CSw>HPr>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 393947 158426 158732 343 35 72.7% 8.1%
HPr>CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons 395775 159554 159877 521 74 71.6% 8.2%
CSw>J>AS>HPr+ex>HW>HPr>HoW>Cons 395674 158362 158669 369 73 72.8% 7.9%
CSw>J>AS+GC>HW>AS>HPr>HoW>Cons 395192 158255 158564 463 115 72.9% 7.7%
CSw>J>AS+GC>HW+FW>AS>HW>HPr>HoW>Cons 395805 158399 158707 388 57 72.7% 7.9%

First, it’s clear that Execution Sentence is our damage option, with Holy Prism trailing it slightly and Light’s Hammer coming in at a close third place.

Execution Sentence seems to be a toss-up with Hammer of Wrath initially, with them neck and neck at around 407k DPS. But the ES>HoW version is far enough ahead that I’m willing to believe it’s a little better, but again, we’re talking about differences that are right on the boundary of our error level. Still, level 90 talents are more fun than Hammer of Wrath, and when two rotations come this close in DPS that’s as good a criterion as any. This basically boils down to “ES>HoW” during execute range, since outside of execute the two rotations are identical. In other words, the ES rotation should be:


None of the tweaked versions that prioritize things differently in execute range give us a significant improvement over that rotation, so we can rule them out.

Curiously, with LH we would be lead to believe that prioritizing it above AS, J, or even CS is a DPS increase. That doesn’t make a lot of sense though: ES hits harder, yet those rotations didn’t exhibit this same behavior. At this point, I’m inclined to believe that something fishy is going on here. I’d call it an outlier, even though it’s several hundred DPS ahead of some of the other options, but it’s not just one rotation. All three of the rotations with LH near the top show the same effect. I’m not sure why that’s happening yet.

That said, if we ignore those three, perhaps on the grounds that it’s a HPG loss, then the same rotation that maximizes Execution Sentence is the best choice here as well. The CS>J>AS>HW>LH>HoW>Cons rotation is the strongest performer when we’re not putting LH above holy power generators. Though again, the difference between that rotation and LH>HW>HoW or HW>HoW>LH is so small that any of them would be fine.

Holy Prism is an odd duck. It seems to enjoy – no, relish even – hanging out in the last spot. Moving it anywhere higher in the queue is a loss of 800 DPS or more, a large enough gap that we can feel pretty certain it’s statistically significant. Even playing some execute-range tricks with it doesn’t help.

This is actually pretty easy to explain. Consider the following three charts of damage per execute time (DPET) for the rotations CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons>L90:


DPET for CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons>ES


DPET for CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons>LH


DPET for CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons>HPr


Note that the DPET on Execution Sentence is far higher than any of our other spells, which is why it’s worth prioritizing ahead of HoW and Cons. The only reason it isn’t worth pushing higher in the queue is that we have enough gaps in our rotation that it’s better to use high-damage, low-cooldown spells like Holy Wrath first to minimize empty GCDs.

The DPET on Light’s Hammer is lower than ES, but still above everything else, so most of the same logic applies. Again, with the weird unexplained exceptions that we talked about earlier, which I’m likely chalking up to error (either in the LH results or in the ES results – I’m not really sure which!).

But the DPET on Holy Prism is only on par with Hammer of Wrath and Consecration. This is mostly because it doesn’t scale as well with attack power as the other Level 90 options. Or to state that more precisely, the spell’s attack power coefficient is similar to that of Consecration and Hammer of Wrath (all around 0.7ish, I believe), so in the high-Vengeance regime they all do about the same damage. Light’s Hammer and Execution Sentence have significantly larger attack power coefficients, and thus do a lot more damage in that regime.

Now, it’s worth noting that this doesn’t mean Holy Prism is badly balanced. The cooldown of Holy Prism is only 20 seconds, compared to 60 seconds for ES and LH. In theory, you could get 3 casts of Holy Prism off in the same time that you cast one of either of the other level 90 talents. And those three Holy Prisms would total more damage than a single LH cast, though less than a single ES.

But those three Holy Prisms also cost three GCDs to the single GCD used by LH or ES. And that hurts Holy Prism in the “rotation priority” department, because it means we’re far more likely to be pushing something else back, effectively extending the cooldown of another spell and cutting into the DPS gain.

And if you have three spells that do very similar amounts of damage, one with a sub-6-second cooldown (HoW), one with a sub-9-second cooldown (Cons), and one with a 20-second cooldown (HPr), which one do you use first? Generally speaking, the ones with the shortest cooldown, because you usually lose less DPS by pushing the long-cooldown spell back than you do by pushing the short-cooldown spells back. See Wrath-era Retribution theorycrafting for another example of this, where Crusader Strike was prioritized over harder-hitting spells simply because its cooldown was much shorter.

Another reason for the discrepancy in DPET (and DPS) in our L90 talents is that LH and Holy Prism have some utility that they’re being balanced around. Both spells do a good bit of healing. Light’s Hammer works a lot like a raid cooldown, while Holy Prism does less of it but does it up-front. Holy Prism also has availability going for it, in that you can use it more frequently – something that anyone who’s tried to pick up a group of loose adds will recognize as a life saver.

In any event, that was a slight tangent; the take-home message of this last table is that Holy Prism gets to bring up the rear in our priority list.


This was an incredibly long post, and I didn’t even begin to go over the results in the sort of detail that I could given more time. But I’m pretty sure I hit most of the more important things. Still, it’s worth summarizing what we learned, or at least reinforced.

From this data, we’d ideally want to follow this rotation:


with the caveat that I’m obviously assuming you’re taking Eternal Flame instead of Sacred Shield, that you’re not doing any fancy Holy Wrath prioritization during execute range, that you’re glyphing Focused Shield and Glyph of Word of Glory, and that you’re ignoring whichever two talents you don’t currently have chosen.

We know that not waiting up to about a third of a second for CS to come off of cooldown is a notable DPS gain, as is prioritizing Avenger’s Shield. In both of those cases we suffer a noticeable decrease in survivability, however.

We also know that it’s a small DPS gain to push Holy Wrath higher in the queue during execute range if we’re using the Final Wrath glyph, but that this comes with a small survivability loss as well.

We know that if we’re taking Sacred Shield, we want to slot it in somewhere in the filler section to refresh it when the duration is almost up. It should probably be a gain to tack it on to the end of the queue to fill an empty GCD as well, but the data is inconclusive here, so the jury’s still out on that one.

And of course the Level 90 talent results are already incorporated into the rotation given above.

It’s also worth noting what we didn’t check here and to be clear about the limitations of this data set. We haven’t attempted to try any additional L75 talent options, so all we have is Divine Purpose data. Holy Avenger shouldn’t vary things too much, insofar as most of HA’s effect is simply more off-GCD SotR spammage. But it could cause rotations that try to increase DPS by prioritizing something over a holy power generator to fail miserably because each holy power generator is basically adding 2/3 of a SotR in damage during HA. On the other hand, they’re also less effective outside of HA than they would be with Divine Purpose, so who knows! Note also that we’re tanking the boss full-time here, so the effective uptime of Holy Avenger isn’t being considered.

Likewise, we didn’t test how Sanctified Wrath affects things. We’re already fairly sure that pushes a J+SW up ahead of CSw in priority, but we don’t know if it changes filler priority at all. Those are all on the list of things to add for next time.

We’re also simming the most bland encounter possible: solo-tanking Patchwerk forever. There’s no movement, no sudden or predictable damage bursts from a boss special, no significant variation in damage patterns (i.e. it’s a steady stream of melee+DoT damage, not an oscillating pattern of heavy melee followed by heavy magic followed by heavy melee and so on…). Basically none of the things that make real encounters interesting.

So keep that in mind when interpreting the results. I may say “this data suggests X is better than Y,” but I’m always doing that within the context of this particular set of constraints. It’s reasonable to assume that it generalizes fairly well to other situations, but it won’t always, and it’s almost certainly not going to be iron-clad enough to be correct for every encounter.

As usual, a smart tank should be looking for those inconsistencies and adapting their play to the encounter rather than blindly relying on “but Theck said so!”

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22 Responses to 5.4.2 Rotation Analysis

  1. Thels says:

    I can’t wait for 6.0 to be here, and Vengeance based DPS to be a thing of the past. I think it’s the reason why LH>CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons is a good option, whereas ES>CSw>J>AS>HW>HoW>Cons is not.

    See http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32805 for more information.

    • Theck says:

      You and me both. Responding to points raised in that thread … in that thread, rather than here.

    • Theck says:

      Actually, to illustrate for anyone who doesn’t follow that link: the explanation behind the LH and ES weirdness I mentioned in the blog post is Vengeance.

      ES snapshots Vengeance when cast. So the queue where we put ES>CS>J>etc. casts it immediately on the pull, when you have zero Vengenace; thus does incredibly bad damage. Since that’s one out of 7 ES casts you get off, it’s a pretty substantial nerf to the average damage of ES.

      LH, on the other hand, doesn’t snapshot; each tick updates dynamically with things like AW and AP (or at least, it does in the sim – I’m not 100% sure it updates with AP in practice, that’s something I’d have to verify again). So even though the first few ticks are weak, the last half of the ticks are still getting nearly the full benefit of Vengeance. As a result, it’s not being penalized as much.

      Moral of the story: ES at the top of the queue is likely still the highest-DPS option, as long as you’re smart enough not to cast it when you don’t have a lot of Vengeance (i.e., pulling with ES….).

  2. Lakh says:

    Somewhat along the same lines as the weak-ES-on-pull thing:

    Considering that ES doesn’t dynamically update, how significant do you think the DPS boost would be if we pushed it up the priority list if we’ve got damage procs up when it comes off CD? (e.g. Determination from Thok’s Tail Tip or Dancing Steel if you’re using that enchant)

    And concur on wanting to see the vengeance dps go – it’s like the DPS ranks where the only way to rank is by scumbagging off adds. Taints the fun of trying to push your DPS while fulfilling your control+mitigation role well.

  3. Theck says:

    The proc from Dancing Steel is probably small enough to be irrelevant compared to Vengeance swings. But under other conditions I’d expect those procs to add a fair bit of damage to ES. There’s a reason that Ret tries to line up ES with those procs and wings.

    In our case, Wings is probably the single most important factor since it’s %-based. To the point that I wouldn’t be surprised if a queue like ES+AW>all would be the clear DPS winner once you have Vengeance.

  4. Çapncrunch says:

    There’s one thing that’s been bothering me regarding the EF condition, that will also affect the WoG line you plan to add for SS setups, is that it doesn’t actually take the 4p into account. For example the EF condition still requires that you either have 3+ holy power or a DP proc to refresh EF even though the 4p makes both requirements irrelevant. When I first realized this (was a while ago, not sure which version of simc it was) I attempted to add a check for the Bastion of Power buff (buff.bastion_of_power.react) but it didn’t seem to work, not sure if the buff is referred to differently in SimC or if the 4p itself is handled differently.

    Granted your test set includes the 4p, so it doesn’t really affect anything, and likewise it won’t really affect anyone else who has the 4p (aside from making the EF condition a little more strict than intended), but if the WoG line you plan to add makes it into the default action priority list for players using SS, then they may not necessarily have the 4p, which means that the WoG line will cause them to waste 25% of their hp on it (and given the way that emergency wogs have simmed in the past this will likely be both a survival and dps loss). And once WoD comes out and we all wave goodbye to our current 4p it’ll start to affect all of us in this way (though admittedly when that happens we can simply remove the WoG line entirely, unless something happens to cause periodic or emergency WoGs to be worth using).

    Aside from that the only other thought I have is that when you did the talent/glyph comparisons the other week Holy Prism was beating ES for dps, yet this time it came in last place. Any idea what could have caused that sudden swing? The only differences I see between the comparisons then and now are the glyphs used then were Alabaster Shield and Divine Protection instead of Word of Glory and Final Wrath, and the rotation priority used then would be CSw>J>AS>HoW>L90>HW>Cons, whereas that exact rotation doesn’t appear here (none of the talent comparisons charts have HoW above HW). But I can’t see why these changes would cause HPr to go from sweeping the dps charts to being in last place. It just seems….odd.

    • Thels says:

      Holy Prism ain’t in last place DPS wise. It performs better than Light’s Hammer. When you talent Holy Prism, you should place it last in the rotation, but that’s not saying that talenting Holy Prism is bad. Holy Prism in last place in the priority list is more DPS than Light’s Hammer over HoW and Cons.

      I assume here that Holy Prism is used offensively, so against two or more targets, Light’s Hammer will probably win over Holy Prism.

      As for SS and fishing for WoG, it shouldn’t really matter at all. The only thing that fishing for WoG adds is possibly additional SotR uses, which do not affect the rotation in the slightest. Admittedly, they might affect DPS slightly, as SotR also deals damage, but CS>J>AS is already at the top of the list, and naturally, the option that generates the most HoPo generates the most additional SotR through WoG fishing.

    • Theck says:

      @Crunch: The Eternal Flame line doesn’t include 4P because it doesn’t have to. It is still a survivability increase to maintain EF with 3+ Bastion of Glory stacks whether you have the 4P or not. There is an argument for adding an


      conditional so that we burn it as soon as we have 4 stacks to fish for more Divine Purpose procs, though I’d probably do that as a separate line, and it’s mostly irrelevant as far as DPS goes (should be an increase across the board, basically).

      I think you misread the WoG line I plan to add. It specifically says “buff.bastion_of_power.react,” not Bastion of Glory. You won’t be having any stacks of Bastion of Power unless you have 4P equipped, so it would be entirely ignored if the player doesn’t have 4-piece.

      If buff.bastion_of_power doesn’t work, that’s something I can fix. It may have been called some amalgamation of tier16_4pc_tank by default.

      The ES issue was a bug with ES – I think in the last few releases, it hasn’t been properly scaling the ticks for some reason. So basically every tick was the same size as the first one. That’s been fixed, but I don’t think that’s made it to a release build. For this post, I’m using an unreleased version of build 542-2 (i.e. compiled from the source).

    • Theck says:

      By the way, do you happen to remember the APL entry you came up with that performed the /cancelaura on Vengeance? I know it’s in one of your comments, but I can’t remember which post.

      • Çapncrunch says:

        @Crunch: The Eternal Flame line doesn’t include 4P because it doesn’t have to. It is still a survivability increase to maintain EF with 3+ Bastion of Glory stacks whether you have the 4P or not.

        I’m not talking about the BoG stacks, I’m talking about the holy power/DP requirements. IE with the EF line the way it is, if you have the 4p, you could have 5 stacks of BoG, and only 1s left on EF but it will NOT refresh EF unless you also have either 3hp or a DP proc, even though neither of those matter since the 4p is already making it free.

        The final set of parenthesis *should* look something like this:

        but again, the bastion of power setting didn’t seem to work when I tried it (I think I tried to test it by making it the only condition for EF, just as a test, and I think it then never used EF at all)

        My vengeance cancel statement was

        I don’t typically use it with the 50s value (that’s just what it happens to be in my little notepad doc of some of the statements I use so I don’t forget them). I think when I use it I usually set it for something like 25~35s (though never 30s, to avoid it syncing with abilities). I know this is shorter than most tankswaps, but honestly Vengeance still tends to sit at a really high average even at those intervals

        Though I guess you’re interested in it more for the dps applications, such as maybe smoothing out issues such as the ES/LH difference (makes me wonder, is the action list able to check the value of a vengeance or even AP to see if ES is worth delaying for higher vengeance vs using it mostly on cd).

        @Thels: yeah, my eyes apparently reversed a few 9s and 6s when looking at the HPr and LH numbers.

        • Theck says:

          Ah, I see what you mean about bastion of power. I’ll do some testing and make sure that it’s working for the next release (unless they do it in the next day or so, before I have time).

          I’m interested in the /cancelaura for both DPS and survivability – the reason we’re getting garbage stat weights in some cases is that with super high Vengeance, we heal for so much through EF and SoI that we’re nigh-invincible. I’d be skeptical if this were true if I hadn’t seen it myself (tanked Thok for nearly a full minute without healers on H25 during one wipe; died eventually when the stacking debuff got too high, otherwise I probably could have soloed the last 5% of his health; was sitting pretty at ~500k vengeance the whole time).

          I’m pretty sure we can check the player’s AP value in a conditional, but I don’t happen to know the code offhand (probably something like player.resource.attack_power>#). Though the ES issue is probably quite simply solved by just restricting it based on simulation time (i.e. time>10 so that we give Vengeance some time to ramp up).

          • Thels says:

            Restricting it based on time is totally going to fail if something like tank swaps or vengeance resets are ever being included.

          • Theck says:

            We can probably wait to worry about that until either of those are actually included.

          • Çapncrunch says:

            By that point it probably won’t matter anyways. Since once WoD comes out we won’t be worried about vengeance for dps. We might be interested in maybe delaying ES for a trinket proc (depending on if we’re still using dps trinkets for tanking or not) but then we can just check for the trinket proc (though that would require a custom condition based on what trinket(s) each person is using).

        • Çapncrunch says:

          Yeah but like I said, the stat weights seem seemed just as much “garbage” even when I set vengeance to reset every 10s, and the sim still showed me as self-sufficient (health timeline never 0 and hps equal to dtps). It just seems like vengeance is ramping up so quickly that EF still nulls the damage (TMI goes up as you reset vengeance more frequently or when simming stronger bosses, as you’d expect, but the stat-weights stay just as hinky most of the time).

          It is strange, you’d think that by removing vengeance so often that occasionally the sim would wind up using a low veng EF but it seems like we still get enough high-veng EFs that it doesn’t matter.

          I did just have an odd thought. Now the vengeance chart we get using the above statement is an upward slope, followed by a drop-off and repeats, whereas if we look at an actual chart of vengeance with tankswaps it’s more sinusoidal (because vengeance slowly tappers off instead of instantly clearing), but I don’t think this itself is an issue, because we’re not tanking during the down-slope periods, so if you were to piece together just the times we were tanking the vengeance timeline would look rather similar to what the cancel_buff statement creates.

          However, that’s as far as I usually thought it out, since the time that we’re tanking is all that really matters anyways (in my mind when/if tankswaps get implemented into the sim it would probably ignore our downtime anyways and piece together our time tanking for analysis). But it just occurred to me that there is perhaps something worth noting about the difference between a piecewise timeline and what the cancel_buff does, and it is EF. When we clear vengeance to simulate a swap we still keep the same EF from before (which is likely fueled by a decent chunk of vengeance), whereas in reality when we taunt back we’ll either have a week EF from when we weren’t tanking or perhaps no EF if we happened to let it drop while we weren’t being punched in the face.

          So what if we also used cancel_buff to clear EF at the same time as we clear vengeance? Would probably want to go back closer to a 40~60s reset, but that matches most tank swap scenarios anyways. I’m gonna give it a try, just wondering if you think this is a worthwhile thought process?

          • Çapncrunch says:

            Well, I was going to run a test resetting EF at the same time that vengeance is reset (was going to use 50s resets for both), however for some reason it will not allow me to use the cancel_buff statement with EF, this is my line:


            And when I try to run the simulation I get:

            Player Çapncrunch uses cancel_buff with unknown buff eternal_flame

            Which is strange since it doesn’t have an issue using eternal_flame as a buff name when we check how much time is remaining on it.

          • Theck says:

            Buffs in SimC are very artificial; we have to code each by hand. So generally, if there’s no good reason to have a buff, we don’t bother. In this case, Eternal Flame puts a HoT on the player, but I haven’t coded a fake buff to interact with.

            Which… in retrospect is a problem, because the APL has an entry with buff.eternal_flame.remains in it. So that’s probably always evaluating to true. Hm…

            I’ll have to see if there’s an easy way to do what you want. Even if I code a buff, usually it’s just for show so that you can check time remaining and such in conditionals (i.e. canceling it doesn’t necessarily cancel the HoT without more special code).

          • Theck says:

            I take that back – there is a buff.eternal_flame coded in SimC, and it works (can test with actions+=/eternal_flame,if=buff.eternal_flame.remains<3).

            It does not, for some reason, work with cancel_buff. I’ll look into why that is.

          • Theck says:

            OK, I figured out why it’s not working with /cancel_buff, I’m looking into ways to fix it. It has to do with how we track buffs (eternal_flame belongs to an “actor pair” since you can cast it on other players as well as yourself; the conditionals are smart enough to check for it, /cancel_buff wasn’t coded that way).

          • Theck says:

            well, it was annoying, but /cancel_buff,name=eternal_flame will work in 542-2

          • Çapncrunch says:

            Well, I both apologize and thank you, I guess now I’ll just have to wait for 542-2 to release to see if clearing EF along with vengeance has worthwhile effects.

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