SotRdämmerung

As was pointed out in the comments on a previous blog post, the protection 2-piece-turned-4-piece that returns holy power when Bastion of Glory (BoG) stacks are consumed will allow us to keep SotR up 100% of the time.  That comes with a small disclaimer, namely that it takes about 40-45% haste to pull it off.  But many players are already at or above that threshold, and more of them will reach it with T16 gear.

The more I think about it the less I think it was intended.  To illustrate why, first let’s look at how the process works.  Let’s assume a player has T16 4-piece and barely enough haste to pull this trick off.  His finisher cast sequence looks something like this:

1: Build 3 HP, cast SotR, repeat 5 times to build 5 BoG stacks
2: Build 1 HP, cast WoG, cash in on 5 free Holy Power from set bonus
3: Cast SotR
4: Build 1 HP, cast SotR
5: Build 3 HP, cast SotR, repeat 3 more times to reach 5 BoG stacks
6: Build 1 HP, cast WoG, cash in on 5 free Holy Power from set bonus.  This takes you back to step 3.

The player then repeats 3-6 indefinitely since that forms a closed loop.  Let’s call a single traversal of that that loop a “cycle.”

For that cycle to maintain 100% SotR uptime, you need to generate 11 HP every 15 seconds.  There’s 16 HP total expenditure per cycle, but you get 5 back each cycle as well.  Eleven HP every 15 seconds is 0.733 HP/sec, which is easily achieved with ~40% haste and any of the T75 talents. Rather than re-do the math myself, I’ll just quote Thels, who worked it out:

Let’s take 2 minutes from a fight, so we can pop HA exactly once. We need 8 cycles of 15 seconds of SotR uptime, so 8 cycles of 11 HoPo, for a total of 88 HoPo every 2 minutes.

During 2 minutes, at 50% haste, we press CS/HotR exactly 40 times, and Judgment 26 times and a bit, for a total of 66 HoPo.

Our HA covers 6 CS/HotR presses and 4 Judgment presses, for a total of 20 extra HoPo, which brings us to 86 HoPo.

That would mean that we need 1 Grand Crusader proc per minute to indeed cap on SotR. Each additional proc allows us to underperform slightly.

The only thing I want to add is that each additional proc doesn’t just allow for under-performance, it also reduces the haste threshold.  My conservative estimate is between 40% and 45% haste, but it will vary a lot based on the number of mobs you’re tanking, the amount of time you spend tanking those mobs, and the average melee swing timer of the bosses (Ji-Kun, for example, spends so much time casting that his effective swing timer is absurdly long).  If you consider any real encounter with tank swaps, banking to 5 HP before starting the cycle essentially ensures 100% uptime while you’re tanking even at lower haste levels.

There are a few reasons I don’t think this was entirely intended.  The fist concern is the “block cap” issue, because that’s really the same problem being recreated by this effect.  We stack a particular stat (haste now, mastery in Cataclysm) so that we can reach a point where we take a lot less damage from physical attacks (>40% now, 30% in Cataclysm.  That certainly feels like it could be a balance problem on any hard-hitting boss, just like the Cataclysm-era block cap was.  How do you challenge all five different tanks when one takes almost half of the damage from the largest attacks?

In Dragon Soul, they simply made most attacks bypass block, but that solution doesn’t work with SotR.  And an entire tier of Lei Shi doesn’t sound appealing, nor is the next tier likely being designed with this in mind.  Block cap was a persistent problem the entire expansion, and they could (and did) plan for it when designing encounters. I doubt the same is true of this set bonus.

Second, the fact that they swapped the T16 set bonuses makes it clear that the developers thought the interaction between 2-piece tier 15 and this holy-power banking set bonus was a problem.  Maintaining a constant +40% block chance buff was bad enough to swap the set bonuses so that it couldn’t happen.  This effect is even worse, because it’s maintaining a constant 40% damage reduction.  We may have had a lot of that uptime already, but I’d argue it’s still a much stronger effect than an extra 40% block chance.

Third, there are some rotational concerns.  On these I’m a little more mixed.  The set bonus means that players will literally be able to macro SotR to every ability in their rotation and ignore it.  All they need to worry about is timing that single 1-holy-power WoG every ~15 seconds to keep their income level.  This bothers me from a skill standpoint, obviously, but also from an annoyance standpoint.  I don’t really want to write 7 or 8 new macros for my rotational abilities just so I can be lazy with SotR presses.  But I probably would, because not having to pay attention to SotR would open up some attention bandwidth that would probably be beneficial.

That said, to pull this trick off you give up WoG as your emergency button, so you are making a sacrifice.  Losing that big self-heal is certainly one fewer reactive tool we have at our disposal.  But it’s almost certainly a sacrifice worth making if you ensure that you never take a full-sized hit.  It’s sort of like giving up sunscreen to become immune to sunburn.

I’m also not certain that it was entirely intended that we could use a 1-holy-power WoG to return all five of our reserve holy power.  That’s the key to this trick, after all: use a 1-HP WoG to refund 5 Holy Power, netting you 4 HP.  If you can do that every 15 seconds, that’s 0.267 HP/sec.  For comparison, you get an equivalent HP generation rate from 67% haste, which is ludicrous.  The set bonus literally gives us about 67% haste worth of holy power generation, or about 28k haste rating.  Now admittedly, that’s assuming that you already have about 40% haste, and the overall value of the set bonus will reduce somewhat if you’re below that point already.  But no matter how you slice it, it’s absurdly good.

In fact, it feels a lot like using one-HP WoGs to game Divine Purpose back in Cataclysm.  When that trick became fairly widespread, the developers modified the proc chance so that it scaled with holy power spent.  The parallels between the two are somewhat uncanny, which leads me to believe that this bonus will be tweaked eventually as well.

I like the general idea of the set bonus, though.  Removing the opportunity cost of WoG is neat.  Having a Holy Power reserve is sort of neat as well.  I can see interesting situational uses for the bank, like getting into real danger and saving the day with a clutch sequence of SotR – WoG – SotR -SotR.  That would be pretty fun, and I feel like that’s the sort of thing the developers had in mind with this set bonus.

But I think I would like the “banking” idea a lot better if we were not able to use it to reach 100% uptime on SotR.  Being able to reach that threshold changes the entire feeling of the bonus.  It will feel not like a neat tool at our disposal, but like a maintenance buff.  And a cheesy maintenance buff at that – something we have to do because it’s just so broken that we’re at a disadvantage if we don’t.

The ability to reach 100% SotR uptime with this removes the interesting aspects of the banking, like being able to choose when you want to use that HP reserve, and replaces it with a rote, “macro SotR to everything” style that feels really bland and boring.  Instead of thinking about timing SotR on short time scales, we phone in our 1-HP WoG every 15 seconds and call it a day.

In more technical language, for the banking idea to be fun it needs to be more reactive than proactive.  Just as WoG is a tool you use to react to a big hit, this set bonus needs to be a tool we use primarily to react to a dangerous situation. There’s certainly still going to be proactive potential here, like using the bank to cram a few extra SotRs in during a period where you expect to be in danger.  But that’s still somewhere in the middle of the reactive-proactive continuum, because you’re reacting to a potential threat.  When it becomes purely proactive, as it does if we’re just withdrawing from the bank every 15 seconds for the steady-state HP gain, it stops being nearly as fun.

I do think that it’s possible to tweak the set bonus slightly to keep the interesting aspects while preventing abuse.  But to do that, the holy power refund we get needs to be scaled or limited somehow, either by the amount of HP spent (as Divine Purpose was) or by some other constraint.  I can think of a few fairly simple systems for this:

1) Return 1 holy power per stack of BoG consumed, capped by HP spent.
In other words, you can only get as much HP back as you spend.  That still removes the opportunity cost of WoG, but also removes the banking potential entirely. That’s a bit of a bummer, but at least it prevents abuse.

2) Let’s assume that solution is too severe.  Instead you could cap the returns by (HP spent + 1).  For example, with a 5-stack of BoG:

3 HP WoG grants 4 HP back
2 HP WoG grants 3 HP back
1 HP WoG grants 2 HP back

This has the downside of not being very intuitive.  It also encourages you to use WoG at less than 5 stacks of BoG to avoid “wasting” potential gains.  For example, the 1-HP WoG cycle would turn into two consecutive SotRs followed by a 1-HP WoG.  That requires 5 HP every 6 seconds if we’re aiming for 100% uptime on SotR, which is a higher threshold (0.8333 HP/sec), but probably still attainable with L75 talents and ~50% haste.

Another concern is that it doesn’t “fix” the problem, it simply raises the threshold.  And if one L75 talent turns out to be the best at HP generation (like the new version of Sanctified Wrath, or “Holy Judgment Spam” as I like to call it), it might be the only valid choice if it lets us reach that threshold.  That just ends up turning the set bonus into a constraint on talent choices, which isn’t much fun.

3) Internal cooldown. HP gains from the set bonus are limited to once every N seconds.  This doesn’t eliminate the banking feature, but does limits the maximum HP generation rate one can achieve by it.  For a few points of reference, here are the rates one would achieve for several different values of N assuming we use a 1-HP WoG at 5 stacks of BoG, which is a 4 HP gain:

N=30 gives 0.1333 HP/sec, or about 33% haste equivalent
N=45 gives 0.0889 HP/sec, or about 22% haste equivalent
N=60 gives 0.0667 HP/sec, or about 16.7% haste equivalent
N=75 gives 0.0533 HP/sec, or about 13.3% haste equivalent
N=90 gives 0.0444 HP/sec, or about 11.1% haste equivalent

Any longer N would probably be too weak, simply because we’re likely to give up about 10% haste just to wear 4-piece unless the itemization team starts embracing our new Mists mechanics.  So at that point it would be a wash in the HP generation department, and whether or not to use the set at all would become a question of whether it’s worth giving up the raw HP generation rate (and DPS!) we’d gain by using well-itemized off-set pieces to gain the short-term HP banking ability that the set bonus provides.

That may still be an interesting choice, but I think that a 1.5-minute or longer effective cooldown will turn players off.  I already heard complaints about the new version of Sacred Shield (30% absorb bubble every 2 minutes, triggered by low health) even though it’s rather powerful. The complaints were always, “meh, once every 2 minutes is so rare it might as well be never.”  I completely disagree, of course. How soon we forget the stupidly overpowered Wrath-era Ardent Defender talent.  But most players form their opinions based on gut feeling rather than rational analysis (you’d be surprised how many prot paladins still gear for dodge and parry!), so I think a long internal cooldown on the set bonus will be generally end up being viewed as not worth it.

And it’s worth noting that this version still only raises the threshold, it doesn’t eliminate it.  It raises it by a lot more than the other methods because it severely reduces the steady-state holy power generation rate that the set bonus provides.  So by the time we have enough haste to hit 100% uptime with this extra income, perhaps we’d already be well above 90% uptime anyway.

Still, I think the internal cooldown idea is probably the most even-handed.  And likely the easiest to implement as well, given that it doesn’t involve a significant change to how the HP returns are calculated.  A 60- to 75-second ICD would put a cap on how effective the set bonus is, and if chosen correctly might make sure that the 100%-uptime SotR panacea is out of reach.

Though I feel obligated to mention that I’ve ignored the potential interactions with the revised version of Selfless Healer, which would return 5 HP for zero HP cost via Flash of Light.  I’m ignoring that because the version of Selfless Healer on the Public Test Realm doesn’t grant the set bonus effect yet.  That may be intended, or it may be an oversight, it’s anyone’s guess as to which.  In fact, my guess is that it’s an oversight that will become intended once this blog post becomes common knowledge.

But more importantly, I don’t believe that the increase in effectiveness we would gain over the regular 1-HP WoG version is worth sacrificing Sacred Shield and tying yourself to the GCD with Flash of Light.  However, if the set bonus is “fixed” in a way that leaves the HP generation threshold in reach, it could become a concern, much like the level 75 talents might be.  It all depends on what, if anything, happens.  As much fun as it might be to be a stupidly-overpowered block-capped paladin tank, I hope something does.  If not for the sake of making the set bonus more interesting, than for the sake of the other tanks we’ll leave in the dust.

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59 Responses to SotRdämmerung

  1. What I’d do is make the set bonus a 33% chance per holy power spent on WoG, up to 100% max; that way, the intent of the set bonus is preserved without actually causing such horrendous gaming mechanics as this one.

    • Theck says:

      I thought about that, but didn’t like the “chance” part very much. It curtails the overall HPG, but it means you can only reliably take advantage of the banking when you use a 3-HP WoG, so if you’re only at 2 HP but you *really* need to get a SotR off, you might just be out of luck.

      In that situation, I’d rather have something reliable but less efficient. You might be willing to trade steady-state HPG for immediate HP in that situation just to get SotR up.

  2. This one’s definitely on the list of “Top 10 Best Theck Blog Post Titles.”

  3. Dragon of Life says:

    Maybe the secret is that it will be impossible to get enough haste to use the set bonus effectively, because all five set items will be itemized with dodge/parry.

    More seriously, the SS changes have been reverted, owing apparently to tank balance issues, since prot would effectively get another cooldown. I’m curious if there’s any possible way that the other two talents could be made competitive for prot without gutting SS entirely…

    • Even if they did put every piece with D/P, you’d still have enough from every other item to make it. I’m already at/near 40% using T15 4p+Ret chest. I can only imagine what would happen if I increase all my ilvls by another 20.

      • Alan Buchbach says:

        In all honesty, after reviewing these tier bonuses and reading the proposed change log for 5.4 I suspect that the haste build is not something that will be around much longer

        Specifically to these two changes:

        1: Grand Crusader no longer has a chance to activate from Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous, but now has a 30% chance to activate when dodging or parrying a melee attack (up from 12%).

        2: Glyph of the Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to heal the most wounded raid or party member instead of the Paladin.

        If we see D/P on the tier instead of haste we’ll know. I don’t want to be a spiky tank >.<

  4. I have grown to dread seeing patch notes on Paladins because I constantly fear they are going to overcompensate some way and royal screw us over.

    I am actually pretty content right now with where we are at, though maybe we could do with a damage buff to compete with the other tanks at our level. The problem is, in areas which we seem to be overpowered, we get nerfed to bring us down to everyone else’s level while the better option would be to bring other tanks up.

    I can’t be the only one tired of feeling a little panicy when I read proposed changes, can I?

  5. Iscoutyou says:

    You also need to consider the interaction this have with DP.

    Basically, what this set bonus can be translated to is that each BoG stack, or SotR by extension gives you 0.8 HoPo, reducing the effective cost 2.2 HoPo.

    Each DP proc generates 1 SotR, but that SotR also generates 0.8 HoPo, which is equal to about 1/3 of a SotR, or 36%. What this means is that each DP proc basically gives you 1.4 SotRs.

    Also, currently you have 5 opportunities to receive a DP proc in 15 HoPo. With this change it will cost you 11 HoPo for a 5 SotR and 1 WoG. It actually costs 16 HoPo but you get 5 HoPo free from the set bonus in each cycle so you only need to generate 11 yourself. What this means is that the amount opportunities to get a DP proc per HoPo that you actually generate is increased from 0.33 opportunities per HoPo to 0.54.

    Basically the synergy between DP and this set bonus is just insane.

    It also has some reverse synergy in that getting a proc on the fifth SotR is kinda devalued and is likely to cause you to “waste” HoPo because you are likely getting 2 HoPo before being able to use WoG. Aswell getting Procs on the WoG will also probably cause “wasted” HoPo since you will be sitting on 5 HoPo so getting a proc wont allow you to use your HoPo instantly.

    Overall it will be a significant boost to your DP.

    It can be argued that if using DP, it is smarter to use 1 point WoG at 4 BoG stacks. This would cause a proc on the 4th SotR or the WoG to be less wasted, which in practice could actually provide higher HoPo gain. That would also mean that each cycle requires 9(13) HoPo to complete, with 5 proc opportunities putting the amount of DP procs you can recieve up to 0.55 per HoPo generated, together with less wasted HoPo due to overcapping.

  6. Thels says:

    Once you can get SotR to 100%, it really doesn’t matter much which Level 75 Talent you take. They all increase our HoPo generation, and thus bring us closer to 100%. I used HA in the example, as it’s easy to calculate how much extra HoPo it generates.

    HA would probably be the best option in the theoretical situation where this would go live (which I really doubt), as it would allow us to pre-load it, get a nice big buffer up at the start, without having to wait for DP procs. I haven’t done the math in detail, though. The alternatives to HA might be better.

    Your math seems a bit off, though. You’re right with SotR generating 0.8 HoPo, but that’s a lot closer to 1/4th than 1/3th. It means 1.26 SotR per DP proc. That’s quite a bit less than your 1.4, which involved 2 big rounding ups. It’s usually better to round down than up.

    If this goes live, the Level 75 Talents would have to be reevaluated with this set bonus in mind, but I really don’t see that happening.

    • Iscoutyou says:

      Of course it matters. If you could theorertically reach 130% uptime, you could change your rotation for maximum dps. Say you have a 10 minute fight that spends 2 minute sub 20%. If you could build up 10 minutes SotR during the first 8 minutes, you could spend the last 2 minutes in the burn phase pushing out max damage with a

      AW(gc/fs) HW(fw) > AW > HW > HoW > J > Cons priority which would increase the damage you do a lot.

      In the same fashion, if you could build up SotR uptime during the low damage phases and use a full dps rotation during the high vengeance phases you could see a huge increase in dps.

      Also. While one GC proc only builds 0.8 HoPo, you can get chain procs, the same reason with DP and SotR currently, DP increases your uptime by 33% not 25%.

      So one initial GC proc is actually equal to a bit over 1 HoPo through chain procs. However what you also need to remember is as we established earlier, reaching 3 HoPo generates 0.8 HoPo, or 1.06 HoPo with DP. Though, if you already have 5 BoG stacks you naturally dont gain more HoPo so scaling it down to a straight 1 seems more fair. So, 1 SotR actually generates 1/3 of an SotR in HoPo with DP, that was what I was talking about, the synergy with DP and this 4p. Basically lowering the cost of an SotR from 2.2 to below 2 HoPo. And those extra HoPo generate more, and more and more.

      While that initial DP proc that “only” generated 0.8 HoPo by default to cascade into generating more. The first step generates 0.8 HoPo, factor in DP, around 1 HoPo. That 1 HoPo generates another 0.33, that 0.33 another 0.11, that 0.11 another 0.04, that generates another 0.01, add that all together and that first SotR actually generated 1.49, which is closer to 1/2 of a SotR than 1/3.

      • Iscoutyou says:

        The question however is how DP also would change the stat weights on our abilities in this case. As I mentioned, 1 HoPo becomes worth 1.85~ HoPo, but lets be nice and scale that down to 1.7, still that is a 70% increase to the HoPo part of each HoPo generator. J/CS/GC procs would cause closer to 1/2 rather than 1/3 of a SotR, which would drastically increase the dps value of those. It is possible that J could provide a higher dps than even HoW in the burn phase.

        So our new “max dps rotation” could change up completely.

      • Theck says:

        I’m not sure I follow your GC logic. Why do you say that GC only builds 0.8 HP? And how exactly are you getting it to chain proc?

      • Thels says:

        Sorry for not making it clear what I meant with “It doesn’t matter”. I meant that, regardless of which L75 talent we end up using in combination with the T16 4 piece, the set bonus is broken, and it will not see live.

  7. Thels says:

    The above message was supposed to be in reply to Iscoutyou. It bugged out somehow. Anyhow…

    *feels all giddy to be quoted by the great Theck*

    And I agree that being able to SotR cap would be bad for both balance and playstyle reasons, but there’s no way they’re going to make things to live as is, so we’ll just wait and see what they come up with. :)

  8. Schroom says:

    I jsut tsted this on PTR. I amcroed every ability to SoTR and skille HA and ised it to pull.

    even with 30% haste I was around 80% uptime. Nerf now! it’s OP and no fun.

  9. Hexzon says:

    Was curious to see if it took much management to keep this buff up on the ptr, with 41.92% haste i was easily able to maintain 90% uptime, I never managed to hit 100% uptime. but then i didn’t get many GC procs.

    Anyways it was really easily to maintain, actually much less effort the the normal rotation and just laughable, the biggest thing about this is even if you can’t hit that 100% up time, after HA the next 80 seconds was a easy blanket in 100% uptime Sotr. I doubt it will be every hard to hit 45-50% haste even if they give us bad itemization on the set gear with next tier.

    Either way its pretty broken.

  10. blizzhoof says:

    Like you said, I feel like the design intent is to remove the opportunity cost of WoG. I don’t really know how to word this, but why not just make it so if you have 3 or more stacks of Bastion of Glory, then WoG is free and casts as if you used 3 HoPo? Wouldn’t that accomplish their goal, while not breaking SotR uptime, and not requiring extra macros/WeakAuras/timers?

    • Theck says:

      “Each stack of Bastion of Glory reduces the holy power cost of WoG by 1.”

      • blizzhoof says:

        I thought of that, but it would be confusing. You can spend 1, 2, or 3 HoPo on WoG. If they worded it that way, I’d wonder how it would interact if I had say 2 stacks and 2 HoPo and cast a WoG. Would it eat one holy power and cast a WoG worth three or not cost me any and cast a 2 HoPo WoG?

        • Kal says:

          I think it’s easy, but maybe I’m missing something, and I’m laughing at saying HoPo in my head. HoPo, HoPo, HoPo. Anyways, a few examples:

          2 BoG/2 HoPo results in a 3 HoPo value WoG cast, costing 1 HoPo.

          2 BoG/1 HoPo results in a 3 HoPo value WoG cast, costing 1 HoPo.

          1 BoG/2 HoPo results in a 3 HoPo value WoG cast, costing 2 HoPo.

          1 BoG/1 HoPo results in a 2 HoPo WoG cast, costing 1 HoPo.

          Basically, my reading of this is that WoG tries to use as many BoG as possible, resulting in free WoG when there’s 3 or more BoG present, but if 2 or less are present, WoG then adds as many HoPo as possible to get to 3.

          My question is, would BoG stacks be consumed?

  11. Nina says:

    I dunno, it still feels clunky and unrewarding for those of us who are average-at-best players. What I’d really love is a set bonus that made the HoPo bank 1 slot bigger, so I could bank enough for 2 SotRs just as we tank swap and so that I wouldn’t accidentally waste HoPo so often when I’m in the middle of HA.

    • blizzhoof says:

      It would effectively be worthless to any decent Protadin. We practically have 6 now if we’re playing right. Store 5 -> Wait for generator to come off CD -> SotR -> Use generator. The set bonus would have to raise the cap by 3 to actually be useful. Then again, they’re most likely going to have our tier horribly itemized, so I kind of hope they change it to a crappy bonus so that I don’t feel obligated to wear the dodge/parry they’re going to put on it.

  12. Keres says:

    As Blizzhoof stated above the 4pc seems to be another in the attempt by the devs to reduce the opportunity cost of WoG, similar to the current T15 2pc, however it’s current incarnation goes far and above that goal, with encouraging a rotational use of 1hp WoG so that we can greatly increase our Holy Power Generation.

    An idea I’ve been playing around with is “At 5 stacks of Bastion of Glory, when consumed by Word of Glory, increases the duration of your next Shield of the Righteous by (X) seconds”. Functionally it would be “Cast SotR(3 secs duration) – Cast WoG – 1 BoG gained – Rotation to build HP – Cast SotR(3 sec duration + 4pc Bonus)”.

    Used 20% avoidance, hit/exp capped, 600 second fight, WoG used every 5 Stacks of BoG and haste at 0, 15%, 20%, 25%, 30%, 35%, 40%, 45% and 50%, and not using any lvl 75 talents as variables. I get an average 8% increase in up-time at 1 additional second, and an 8% increase for each additional second added to the bonus. At 50% haste I show about 57% up-time, again without lvl 75 talents.

    Granted it is my idea but I like the idea better of a 8% improvement better than a 4pc that just leads to macro-ing SotR to everything which would lead us to just be stupidly overpowered.

  13. Daishan says:

    I was thinking of something like
    “For each stack of BoG that is consumed you also can 1 sec of SotR”

    I think that could be fun and useful without been broken.

    • Daishan says:

      also gain* 1 sec of SotR
      stupid phone swype -.-

      • Daishan says:

        Ignore me, after thinking about it that’s just as broken as the original version, effectively extending every SotR from 3 to 4 seconds is ofc completely overpowered.

        As Theck suggested it seems that anything that gives us more holy power needs to have a sizable ICD.

        Turning WoG into a personal absorb of some type might be a viable alternative.

  14. Jackinthegreen says:

    The most recent datamining on MMO-C has a build up where the 4p has been changed to simply let WoG be free if there’s 3 or more stacks of BoG up, and cast as if it was with 3 HoPo. I expect this is the one that will stick since it doesn’t generate HoPo.

    However, another possible change is to SW: It makes Judgment generate 2 HoPo instead of 1. It shouldn’t cause any rotational mishaps since we can spend the HoPo before capping. However, it is still more HoPo during those 30 seconds of AW, which means we can get an even longer duration on SotR. Hopefully it won’t be possible to get it to 100% though, even with 50% haste.

    • Balloon says:

      The new SW makes it pull far ahead of HA, only negative side is the 2 min vs 3 min cd. Still, you wont see 100% uptime with SW. DP is still your best talent for uptime which will result in 90+% with the prot 4p

  15. Balloon says:

    That means a ~13% increase in SotR uptime, so we will be seeing about 90%~ +- 7% uptime depending on RNG in the next tier.

  16. Schroom says:

    Item – Paladin T16 Protection 4P Bonus – While at 3 or more stacks of Bastion of Glory, your next Word of Glory will consume no Holy Power and count as 3 Holy Power were consumed.

    they fixed it :)

    • Balloon says:

      Still 13% increase of SotR uptime resulting in a 87-97% uptime~

      • Schroom says:

        this does not generate HoPo so I really can’t see where those 13% increase you mention comes from? it should have no influence on SoTR uptime what so ever.

        • Balloon says:

          It is not that obvious
          Take 3 steps back. Look at the set bonus again. See it?

          • Daishan says:

            Surely it’s only a 13% increase in SotR uptime if we’re using WoG every time we hit 3 stacks of BoG? Don’t think many of us are using WoG that often atm.

          • Theck says:

            Daishan: I think his point is that if it triggers Divine Purpose, then you would be expected to use it rotationally every 3 stacks for exactly that reason.

      • Theck says:

        Not sure how you’re getting any SotR uptime out of that. Making WoG free doesn’t change SotR uptime if you weren’t already using WoG rotationally (which we weren’t).

        Unless you’re using Divine Purpose, I guess, in which case that will cause an increase.

        • Daishan says:

          Ah that makes sense then, thanks Theck, i’ve been a tad slow the past 2 days….

          Surprised that it’s as much as 13% extra SotR uptime though, guess i should really try out Divine Purpose now that I’m almost 50% haste.

          • Theck says:

            Keep in mind it’s a free chance to proc Divine Purpose every 3 SotRs (so ~15-20 seconds). 13% might still be a high estimate, I’d expect ~1 extra SotR via DP per minute, which is 3 sec / 60 sec or 5%. But that’s just a rough guess.

          • Balloon says:

            13% might be a high estimate, but 10% is a fairly reasonable estimate.

  17. blizzhoof says:

    Now that they’ve done what I suggested, I’m thinking that it isn’t good enough to be the 4-pc. Maybe they should switch it back and turn what is currently the 2-pc into an absorb.

    • Theck says:

      Still can’t do that. Free WoG 2-piece plays very well with 15-second 40% block buff 2-piece.

    • Brokenone says:

      Maybe they should scrap it and think of a new one then? Free WoG every 3 ShoR’s (how often do you really *need* to WoG anyway?) isn’t worth 6 lower ilvls and worse itemization.

      • Jackinthegreen says:

        We don’t know that yet, especially since it does interact positively with Divine Purpose. Let’s at least properly sim it and find out.

  18. Airowird says:

    Possibly a stupid question, but what about …..
    Revert the current one but …. ShotR has a 4s CD in 5.4.
    It would cap ShotR at 75% uptime, so maybe it’ll need a charge-CD model like Roll or Savage Defense etc, but it allows for set bonus to increase HoPo generation that spills over into WoG use, rather than just “we are now twice as good a tank as everyone else”.
    It would put a hold on Haste stacking (which would imho leave more interesting gear choices after that breakpoint) without really changing the value of Haste at lower gear levels. It would especially do what the set bonus iterations all failed to do: Make you use more WoG.

  19. Daishan says:

    Putting SotR on a 4 sec cd would pretty much break all of our tier 5 talents as most of the extra holy power from them could only be used for WoGs.
    It would also make tanking any boss with a big special attack that we need SotR for (Ra Den) very frustrating, as we wouldn’t be able to use back to back SotR to compensate for the special attack getting delayed by a boss melee or cast.

  20. injustice says:

    just out of curiosity, why do you insist that tanking must be a challenge? there are many players who will never see content because individuals like you jump all over something that could potentially bring some ease to their game play, it then gets taken away, and in the end we are left with only the skilled players ever seeing end content.

    • injustice says:

      edit. tanks SHOULD struggle at the begining of an expac but become more powerful just as dps and heals do as the expac progresses. just as we could not hit 100% block at the start of cata yet we could by the end. I am sure that if Blizz gives us a shiny new toy they will snatch it away by nerfing healing or bypassing it’s value in some way.

    • Theck says:

      I’m not sure I follow. Are you suggesting that unskilled players cannot see end content? Between LFR, normal modes, and soon flex raids, there are plenty of ways for unskilled players to see and kill Lei Shen and Garrosh.

      If you’re suggesting that unskilled players should be able to faceroll heroic modes, then I flat-out disagree.

      In any event, I don’t think it’s fair to equate “broken mechanics” to “bringing ease to game play.” A broken mechanic has ramifications far beyond just making the game a little easier for weaker players. It can affect class and encounter balance and cause collateral damage. For example, getting nerfed in another area, which then doubly punishes players who don’t have access to the broken mechanic. Ironically enough, that will generally skew towards weaker players getting punished more than skilled players.

      Also, I think your memory of cataclysm is off. We could block cap in T11.

      In any event, are you suggesting that we haven’t gotten more powerful as the expansion has progressed? I don’t know about you, but:
      I started out MoP with 400-500k hit points. I now have nearly 1 million.
      I started out with barely a few percent haste. I now have 20-25% (and more if I drop stamina).
      I started out the expansion with ~5% mastery. I now have about 20%.

      We definitely have gotten more powerful, just as DPS and heals have. We don’t need to be given unintentionally broken mechanics to get more powerful, the entire gear system ensures that it happens naturally.

  21. Ceomao says:

    the reason that we are debating about how broken/effective tier set bonus is was that our mechanic is heavily relying on haste. if there is no way we can cap Sotr then blizzard would generously gives us the set bonus that would otherwise increase up time. But regretfully we chose to abuse sanctity of battle by stacking huge amount to haste which ultimately leads to redesign of grand crusader Twice and potentially more nerf if we could ever get near 100% Stor up time with increasing ilvl through tiers. What we saw from past few tiers was majority people selecting high ilvl gear with more haste/mastery over traditional tank specc tier pieces with bad taste set bonus. We are the one to blamed for not having a good set bonus not blizzard and i believe the system is already broken/being abused that we would suffer from that since we are used to give away 4-piece over higher secondary stats.

    • Theck says:

      I don’t agree. You’re basically saying that it’s “our fault” for min/maxing. I don’t think that’s reasonable at all, as the alternative is choosing to play at a lower level of performance. That’s indicative of a problem in the design, not the players.

  22. Schroom says:

    I really wonder how you come to this conclusion. neither of those 2 Points are the reason we are stacking haste. and they don’t affect haste Co/Ha for damage smothing in the least.
    the GC change isn’t a nerf to haste, it is a buff to avoidance!
    last time I checked battle healer could still heal yourself if YOU where the most injured target nearby. and even if it doesn’t there si a whole thread about it on maintankadin. The glyph would be situational. but you probably play with it on default ina a raid environment, as most of the SoI Healing goes into overhealing anyway. and the SoI HoTs are bigger than the actual BH heals. So the support for yxour raid will be even higher. -> also a buff. AND still skales with haste btw.

  23. Schroom says:

    I really wonder how you come to this conclusion. neither of those 2 Points are the reason we are stacking haste. and they don’t affect haste Co/Ha for damage smothing in the least.
    the GC change isn’t a nerf to haste, it is a buff to avoidance!
    last time I checked battle healer could still heal yourself if YOU where the most injured target nearby. and even if it doesn’t there si a whole thread about it on maintankadin. The glyph would be situational. but you probably play with it on default ina a raid environment, as most of the SoI Healing goes into overhealing anyway. and the SoI HoTs are bigger than the actual BH heals. So the support for yxour raid will be even higher. -> also a buff. AND still skales with haste btw.

  24. Schroom says:

    ok.. sorry.

    something wrong with the site? this was supposed to be a reply to

    Alan Buchbach says:
    July 30, 2013 at 4:48 am

    also double post not intended….

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